"Thomas Jefferson said a democracy is dependent on an informed citizenry. I don't care whether it sounds corny or not. It's the truth." -Jim Lehrer
Carefree Truth
Issue #976, December 26, 2021
Issue #976, December 26, 2021
Stephanie Barbour, who lives in The Boulders, said if she understood it correctly, what's driving these developments is the need to generate sales tax revenue. She felt it would be better to put the focus on where Carefree could get the biggest bang for the buck. She said Steve Prokopek mentioned that Cave Creek is doing a wonderful job of generating sales tax on the corner of Carefree Highway and Cave Creek Road. That's an area Carefree rezoned in 2018.
She asked why the Town was focused on a resort on the corner of Carefree Highway and Tom Darlington Drive instead of putting a Costco on the corner of "Cave Creek Highway and Carefree Road" (the speaker's terms). She said a typical Costco generates about $160 million dollars per location, and a Costco would guarantee a success of revenue whereas, as Ms. Hardy pointed out, a resort is iffy. A resort is seasonal and could be unsuccessful like El Pedregal.
She agreed that more money needed to be generated through a property tax or through sales tax revenue, but Carefree's a small town and should be focused on bang for the buck. The N.E. corner was rezoned in 2018 and there's nothing there yet, and it's known to be successful based on Cave Creek's model. She is confused about why the Town is talking about a re-zoning and a resort now, when they haven't even taken huge advantage of a corner that we know generates gigantic commercial sales tax revenue.
Steve Prokopek said it was interesting that Ms. Barbour brought up Costco for that particular location. One of the issues it creates is overall traffic and how that impacts an area. Costco comes with its baggage. There are an extreme amount of deliveries and an extreme amount of in and out traffic. It's probably the highest commercial use traffic generator that you can get. That is not what the neighbors on that corner ever expected. Those are the things we try to be conscious of when we look at the scale and ability of this town. While Mr. Prokopek agreed it was a big bang for the dollar, he didn't think that was an appropriate spot for a Costco. Ms. Barbour was comparing the least intense use, a resort, to the most intense use possible, a Costco. And if you look at where Costco stores go, they tend to locate off a freeway, where they can get an extreme amount of traffic volume. They aren't going to get that volume here. Also, the site is a minimal size on which a Costco would go.
This isn't a rush to a resort. Carefree doesn't do this in a linear way; we do these things in concert. This is just the very first step in outlining a use for a particular site to protect ourselves for the future. That's what general planning is all about. It's not an up-zoning; it's not a re-zoning. There is no zoning happening on this site today. There is a separate zoning process that is required. There is no project associated with this. It's looking down the road to see that this is a good fit for our community.
It has been frustrating because Carefree did have developers that were interested in the N.E. corner, particularly Sprouts. And that Sprouts could not go in there because Carefree didn't own the water resources. They belonged to Cave Creek. Cave Creek deliberately stymied development on that site by refusing to deliver a Will Serve letter requested by that developer. So much time went by that the development never occurred on that site. This is another reason why it is vital for Carefree to look at our water management. We can't develop that site until we can provide water to it. Think about what we could have put there. We have probably already lost about $4 million in revenue from the loss of Sprouts. That was their first choice for a location.
Councilman Stephen Hatcher added that without this infrastructure program with respect to the water, if we don't have the use and access to our water supply, we are going to continue to go through what we did with the loss of Sprouts. Cave Creek literally came in and took that behind our backs, and we lost millions of dollars because we didn't have control of our water network system, so let's keep that in mind. It is another very good reason why the Town has moved forward aggressively in getting control of our water. A lot of time and money was spent so that, when the time comes, we can develop that corner appropriately for our community. It was a bad situation and we need to get control of it.
B.J. Pistillo, who also lives in The Boulders, said he agreed with prior speakers that the reason he moved here was the beauty of the area, and the gorgeous topography of that corner and all the way up Tom Darlington. He felt that commercial development of this property to generate tax revenue does come at a cost to those who live here. It's probably not going to be as nice a place in the future. He noted that Mr. Prokopek had said that we have to steward what we have. Mr. Pistillo said it's not just economics, it's also the beauty and environmental impact. It's what we had when we got here and how do we leave it when we go.
Mr. Pistillo said this is being done to avoid a property tax, but it sounds like Carefree is going to have a property tax at some point anyway. Property taxes are needed because the costs for services by the residents are outstripped by the ability of the commercial part of the town to provide those revenues. He didn't think there was any long term solution to that. The census is going to continue to go up. Do we want wall-to-wall commercial development or do we want to preserve beautiful night skies and desert open space and have to pay a property tax? We don't have 16 resorts like Paradise Valley (Paradise Valley has 9 resorts) and we will never have that much contributions to the Town's coffers. Once this property gets zoned for commercial purposes, it's not going to go back. As Ms. Barbour pointed out, there is another large parcel at the other end of town that is sitting there empty. Since this is not going to a vote of the residents, he said the Council has to think about what's best for all of the residents in the long term.
Ms. Abby Renfroe began by commenting that she is so disappointed that all the work to buy back customers and add storage for those 500 residents in Carefree who deserved better water also appears to be needed so we can develop the other areas that we need for revenue. (It's 526 households and the future businesses on the N.E. corner of Carefree Highway and Cave Creek Road. The other potential commercial areas and the downtown are in locations served by the Carefree Water Company.) If all 4 areas are developed and produce the anticipated sales tax, how long would this delay the need for a property tax? And if Carefree applied a property tax now that would prevent the need for the development of these retail sites, how much would it be?
Gary Neiss explained that it would be difficult to tell what a property tax would be. Obviously, the conversation over the 20 years he's spent in community development, and the last 12 years he's spent in administration, has been resistant to a property tax. That has been a consistent thread through the past leadership and through the residents. He told her that if she is proposing a property tax, it has to be a citizen driven process.
Cave Creek made the choice to look at high traffic areas. They have done a great job of trying to preserve land within the community. Carefree has also started a preserve. He thought perhaps many of the meeting attendees were not familiar with that. Mr. Neiss said he'd worked with a number of property owners who donated land, and the Town bought land in the northern part of Carefree using development impact fees that had been assessed, in which funds were allocated to purchase land. These fees can no longer be assessed because the State law changed. Carefree has nearly 60 acres of dedicated preserve and the Town is still working with nearby property owners. "And so, we are trying to preserve the desert around us."
The location at the corner of Carefree Highway and Tom Darlington is a very high traffic area. It's not a quiet area that is conducive to low density residential. "If you stand at this intersection on this piece of land, you will hear that noise. That's why the other corners did not develop as low density residential, and those properties used to be residentially zoned properties. On historic General Plans, they were also indicated as residential."
Ms. Renfroe said her question was simply about property tax estimates. Mr. Neiss responded that it was something the community would have to decide. Ms. Renfroe asked how people could decide if they are willing to sacrifice one for the other if there's not even a ball park estimate. Mr. Neiss said there was a bullet point on one of the early slides in this presentation that indicated approximately $1 million in sales tax revenue would be equivalent to a $400-$500 property tax. (See the last line)
She asked why the Town was focused on a resort on the corner of Carefree Highway and Tom Darlington Drive instead of putting a Costco on the corner of "Cave Creek Highway and Carefree Road" (the speaker's terms). She said a typical Costco generates about $160 million dollars per location, and a Costco would guarantee a success of revenue whereas, as Ms. Hardy pointed out, a resort is iffy. A resort is seasonal and could be unsuccessful like El Pedregal.
She agreed that more money needed to be generated through a property tax or through sales tax revenue, but Carefree's a small town and should be focused on bang for the buck. The N.E. corner was rezoned in 2018 and there's nothing there yet, and it's known to be successful based on Cave Creek's model. She is confused about why the Town is talking about a re-zoning and a resort now, when they haven't even taken huge advantage of a corner that we know generates gigantic commercial sales tax revenue.
Steve Prokopek said it was interesting that Ms. Barbour brought up Costco for that particular location. One of the issues it creates is overall traffic and how that impacts an area. Costco comes with its baggage. There are an extreme amount of deliveries and an extreme amount of in and out traffic. It's probably the highest commercial use traffic generator that you can get. That is not what the neighbors on that corner ever expected. Those are the things we try to be conscious of when we look at the scale and ability of this town. While Mr. Prokopek agreed it was a big bang for the dollar, he didn't think that was an appropriate spot for a Costco. Ms. Barbour was comparing the least intense use, a resort, to the most intense use possible, a Costco. And if you look at where Costco stores go, they tend to locate off a freeway, where they can get an extreme amount of traffic volume. They aren't going to get that volume here. Also, the site is a minimal size on which a Costco would go.
This isn't a rush to a resort. Carefree doesn't do this in a linear way; we do these things in concert. This is just the very first step in outlining a use for a particular site to protect ourselves for the future. That's what general planning is all about. It's not an up-zoning; it's not a re-zoning. There is no zoning happening on this site today. There is a separate zoning process that is required. There is no project associated with this. It's looking down the road to see that this is a good fit for our community.
It has been frustrating because Carefree did have developers that were interested in the N.E. corner, particularly Sprouts. And that Sprouts could not go in there because Carefree didn't own the water resources. They belonged to Cave Creek. Cave Creek deliberately stymied development on that site by refusing to deliver a Will Serve letter requested by that developer. So much time went by that the development never occurred on that site. This is another reason why it is vital for Carefree to look at our water management. We can't develop that site until we can provide water to it. Think about what we could have put there. We have probably already lost about $4 million in revenue from the loss of Sprouts. That was their first choice for a location.
Councilman Stephen Hatcher added that without this infrastructure program with respect to the water, if we don't have the use and access to our water supply, we are going to continue to go through what we did with the loss of Sprouts. Cave Creek literally came in and took that behind our backs, and we lost millions of dollars because we didn't have control of our water network system, so let's keep that in mind. It is another very good reason why the Town has moved forward aggressively in getting control of our water. A lot of time and money was spent so that, when the time comes, we can develop that corner appropriately for our community. It was a bad situation and we need to get control of it.
B.J. Pistillo, who also lives in The Boulders, said he agreed with prior speakers that the reason he moved here was the beauty of the area, and the gorgeous topography of that corner and all the way up Tom Darlington. He felt that commercial development of this property to generate tax revenue does come at a cost to those who live here. It's probably not going to be as nice a place in the future. He noted that Mr. Prokopek had said that we have to steward what we have. Mr. Pistillo said it's not just economics, it's also the beauty and environmental impact. It's what we had when we got here and how do we leave it when we go.
Mr. Pistillo said this is being done to avoid a property tax, but it sounds like Carefree is going to have a property tax at some point anyway. Property taxes are needed because the costs for services by the residents are outstripped by the ability of the commercial part of the town to provide those revenues. He didn't think there was any long term solution to that. The census is going to continue to go up. Do we want wall-to-wall commercial development or do we want to preserve beautiful night skies and desert open space and have to pay a property tax? We don't have 16 resorts like Paradise Valley (Paradise Valley has 9 resorts) and we will never have that much contributions to the Town's coffers. Once this property gets zoned for commercial purposes, it's not going to go back. As Ms. Barbour pointed out, there is another large parcel at the other end of town that is sitting there empty. Since this is not going to a vote of the residents, he said the Council has to think about what's best for all of the residents in the long term.
Ms. Abby Renfroe began by commenting that she is so disappointed that all the work to buy back customers and add storage for those 500 residents in Carefree who deserved better water also appears to be needed so we can develop the other areas that we need for revenue. (It's 526 households and the future businesses on the N.E. corner of Carefree Highway and Cave Creek Road. The other potential commercial areas and the downtown are in locations served by the Carefree Water Company.) If all 4 areas are developed and produce the anticipated sales tax, how long would this delay the need for a property tax? And if Carefree applied a property tax now that would prevent the need for the development of these retail sites, how much would it be?
Gary Neiss explained that it would be difficult to tell what a property tax would be. Obviously, the conversation over the 20 years he's spent in community development, and the last 12 years he's spent in administration, has been resistant to a property tax. That has been a consistent thread through the past leadership and through the residents. He told her that if she is proposing a property tax, it has to be a citizen driven process.
Cave Creek made the choice to look at high traffic areas. They have done a great job of trying to preserve land within the community. Carefree has also started a preserve. He thought perhaps many of the meeting attendees were not familiar with that. Mr. Neiss said he'd worked with a number of property owners who donated land, and the Town bought land in the northern part of Carefree using development impact fees that had been assessed, in which funds were allocated to purchase land. These fees can no longer be assessed because the State law changed. Carefree has nearly 60 acres of dedicated preserve and the Town is still working with nearby property owners. "And so, we are trying to preserve the desert around us."
The location at the corner of Carefree Highway and Tom Darlington is a very high traffic area. It's not a quiet area that is conducive to low density residential. "If you stand at this intersection on this piece of land, you will hear that noise. That's why the other corners did not develop as low density residential, and those properties used to be residentially zoned properties. On historic General Plans, they were also indicated as residential."
Ms. Renfroe said her question was simply about property tax estimates. Mr. Neiss responded that it was something the community would have to decide. Ms. Renfroe asked how people could decide if they are willing to sacrifice one for the other if there's not even a ball park estimate. Mr. Neiss said there was a bullet point on one of the early slides in this presentation that indicated approximately $1 million in sales tax revenue would be equivalent to a $400-$500 property tax. (See the last line)
That is a broad statement. It depends on what you are trying to fund. But it provides a benchmark of what a property tax in Carefree could be.
Ms. Renfroe asked if all these places brought in the sales tax revenue, how long it would be before a property tax is needed anyway. Mr. Neiss said it is his hope that it is extended indefinitely. "Look at the Town of Cave Creek once again. They are looking at a fire program that adds another $2-1/2 to $3 million to their budget, with the possibility of that escalating with addition fire stations in the future. They feel, with the revenue being generated by the new commercial in their town, that they will not need a property tax. Paradise Valley, which is a much larger community, has resorts that anchor the revenue into their community. They do not have a property tax and will most likely not need a property tax in the future. And that revenue helps to pay for a municipal police department as well as a fire department that they partner with the City of Phoenix, so two large expenses that are generated through sales tax. So, there is a possibility that we may not need a property tax." Ms. Renfroe thanked Mr. Neiss.
Janet Veves had another question. She said that Languid Lane takes in traffic from Ridgeway Estates, Whileaway, Stagecoach Pass, and turn around traffic from The Boulders. Additionally, there is a winding S curve on Languid that is very dangerous, and exiting onto Tom Darlington left or right is a challenge. Stagecoach and Languid are used as short cuts to avoid traffic. She was sure that if a resort went in, Languid and Stagecoach would become nightmares. She asked if there was anything they could tell her that would make her feel better about this.
Mr. Neiss replied that the idea was not to have traffic from a resort going onto Languid, but to focus it onto Tom Darlington. These assessments are gone into during the zoning process, which is much more prescriptive. That's where the mitigation to the neighborhood is addressed. The General Plan doesn't do the deep dive into these respective issues. He agreed this is an important issue, and one they will try to mitigate to prevent traffic associated with a hotel from going down Languid.
Ms. Renfroe asked how she could be included in any planning on that. Mr. Neiss explained that there is a whole public process associated with re-zoning. "You will be involved in that process as a nearby neighbor. This is just the first step in the process."
Ms. Graves said she is a new resident in Carefree who moved here in April. She lives in The Boulders. She wanted to reiterate that they moved here for the quiet and the low density nature of Carefree. She felt that, as Ms. Renfroe and Mr. Pistillo said, maybe a lot of residents would prefer a property tax in lieu of this continued development.
https://vimeo.com/655563466
(Lyn's note: (Comments in parentheses and italics are my clarifications.)
Lyn Hitchon
Prepared by Carefree Truth
Copyrighted
Visit our website at www.carefreetruth2.com If you know anyone who would like to be added to the Carefree Truth email list, please have them contact me. Feel free to share Carefree Truth with others on your list.
Visit www.carefreeazbusinesses.com to see more info about businesses in Carefree. Please support our merchants.
Ms. Renfroe asked if all these places brought in the sales tax revenue, how long it would be before a property tax is needed anyway. Mr. Neiss said it is his hope that it is extended indefinitely. "Look at the Town of Cave Creek once again. They are looking at a fire program that adds another $2-1/2 to $3 million to their budget, with the possibility of that escalating with addition fire stations in the future. They feel, with the revenue being generated by the new commercial in their town, that they will not need a property tax. Paradise Valley, which is a much larger community, has resorts that anchor the revenue into their community. They do not have a property tax and will most likely not need a property tax in the future. And that revenue helps to pay for a municipal police department as well as a fire department that they partner with the City of Phoenix, so two large expenses that are generated through sales tax. So, there is a possibility that we may not need a property tax." Ms. Renfroe thanked Mr. Neiss.
Janet Veves had another question. She said that Languid Lane takes in traffic from Ridgeway Estates, Whileaway, Stagecoach Pass, and turn around traffic from The Boulders. Additionally, there is a winding S curve on Languid that is very dangerous, and exiting onto Tom Darlington left or right is a challenge. Stagecoach and Languid are used as short cuts to avoid traffic. She was sure that if a resort went in, Languid and Stagecoach would become nightmares. She asked if there was anything they could tell her that would make her feel better about this.
Mr. Neiss replied that the idea was not to have traffic from a resort going onto Languid, but to focus it onto Tom Darlington. These assessments are gone into during the zoning process, which is much more prescriptive. That's where the mitigation to the neighborhood is addressed. The General Plan doesn't do the deep dive into these respective issues. He agreed this is an important issue, and one they will try to mitigate to prevent traffic associated with a hotel from going down Languid.
Ms. Renfroe asked how she could be included in any planning on that. Mr. Neiss explained that there is a whole public process associated with re-zoning. "You will be involved in that process as a nearby neighbor. This is just the first step in the process."
Ms. Graves said she is a new resident in Carefree who moved here in April. She lives in The Boulders. She wanted to reiterate that they moved here for the quiet and the low density nature of Carefree. She felt that, as Ms. Renfroe and Mr. Pistillo said, maybe a lot of residents would prefer a property tax in lieu of this continued development.
https://vimeo.com/655563466
(Lyn's note: (Comments in parentheses and italics are my clarifications.)
Lyn Hitchon
Prepared by Carefree Truth
Copyrighted
Visit our website at www.carefreetruth2.com If you know anyone who would like to be added to the Carefree Truth email list, please have them contact me. Feel free to share Carefree Truth with others on your list.
Visit www.carefreeazbusinesses.com to see more info about businesses in Carefree. Please support our merchants.